thanks muskie, after two weeks of hitting it hard finally found the right technique bait and strategy. hooked into a twenty pounder on 8# tes. ran for almost forty minutes, best fight ive ever had with a fish. incredible, i've rigged up my light plugging rod i use for stripers with a 1 oz barrel and a size 2 hook, 20# , hitting it in the morning, if you havent gone carping yet get on it, by far the most exciting thing ive caught in a couple years. need a net though, wasnt able to get him over the rock wall i was fishing off. also noticed that they seem to move in packs, so hopefully i can get another one in the morning, i'm completely hooked, thanks muskie!